I met Alexandra Harney last December over lunch at da domenico and we immediately hit it off. She's a journalist and now published author of The China Price: The True Cost of Chinese Competitive Advantage. She's one of those fascinating and entertaining people that can talk about everything under the sun and make you laugh non-stop. She speaks fluent Japanese, worked as an aide to a Japanese politician, taught herself Chinese so that she could talk to migrant Chinese workers and is also an avid snowboarder.
Penguin releases her book next Thursday (27 March). Because I haven't read the book yet, I thought it would be fun to have Alex talk about it herself. So I scheduled a gmail chat session with her. What I had originally anticipated to be a 20-30 minute session, ended up running an hour and a half. She had just gotten back from giving a talk at a Rotary Club luncheon and we chit-chatted a bit before eventually diving into her book:
2:48 PM me: so what gave you the idea to devote 2 years of your life roaming from chinese factory to chinese factory?
2:49 PM Alexandra: well, I grew up outside Washington, DC at a time when everyone was very concerned about Japan as an economic threat
and so I was very surprised, when I moved to Japan in the late 1990s,
me: this is back in the 80s?
2:50 PM Alexandra: to hear Japanese executives telling me they were worried they were going to lose their jobs to china. This was in the early 1990s that I first became aware of the debate about Japan.
2:51 PM So when I moved to Hong Kong with the Financial Times,
one of the first things I did was head up to mainland China.
I visited a clothing factory
and met this young woman, a worker,
2:52 PM who was sending most of what she earned home to her family every month.
All she had left over from the $100 or she earned was enough money for soap or tissues.
I thought she was pretty fascinating
and I looked around, and there were thousands of other women just like her
in that factory alone, and millions of others all around China.
2:53 PM I wanted to tell their story, and connect it to my life and the lives of my friends and family back in the US.
me: that's really interesting...so basically, it was a connection with a woman...and you wanted to understand her life
2:54 PM Alexandra: Precisely.
I wanted, actually, to move into a dormitory in China and work and live like a factory worker.
That wasn't really possible.
Chinese factories are busy places
and I'm not very efficient.
me: haha...i see a trend here...factory girl...sushi chef...
2:55 PM journalism really suits you
Alexandra: Yes - in Japanese, they call it "taiken"
me: what else would you want to be?
Alexandra: which literally translated means "body experience"
me: or rather, experience
Alexandra: well, there's the body character in there
but yes, it means experience
2:56 PM I'm not sure what else I'd like to try out
but when I was living in Japan, I did as many of those "taiken" experiences as possible
I made butter on a farm in Hokkaido
2:57 PM I made paper the old fashioned way
in a little village outside Tokyo
I handed out brochures on the street
2:58 PM me: it seems in this day and age...we are so removed from using our hands to make things
production is outsourced to others
Alexandra: Absolutely
And that's a pretty fascinating trend
2:59 PM Because whoever ends up making things for us benefits, but also pays a price
that's what The China Price is about.
me: but ultimately, we, as consumers, also pay a price too
Alexandra: Yes, completely.
3:00 PM me: so that leaves only one winner
Alexandra: Well, I think people win on both sides of the equation
One economist in the US estimates that China's factories have saved the average American family $500 a year
because their prices are so low.
That's a material savings.
3:01 PM And things like Ipods and mobile phones are more affordable because of outsourcing production to lower-cost areas.
On the other side of the equation, Chinese workers do generally earn money for their work
me: but we pay for it in terms of waste accumulation, damage to the environment etc.
Alexandra: if not perhaps as much as they should under the law.
3:02 PM Yes, definitely. To make things really cheaply, you have to sacrifice certain costs
and unfortunately, those costs have historically often been environmental protection
workers' rights
workers' health.
This is not specific to China - it's happened and happening everywhere.
me: do you think it's worth it?
3:03 PM Alexandra: Great question.
I think it depends on who you are.
me: start with the factory worker
3:04 PM Alexandra: Okay, if you're a Chinese factory worker who has used your earnings and experience to climb the economic ladder
3:05 PM and obtain a better standard of living for yourself and your family
then you're lucky: you are a beneficiary of globalization.
But if you're one of the unlucky factory workers
3:06 PM who has contracted an occupational disease
for example
and you're dying of silicosis
because of the dust you inhaled on the line, and you don't have insurance
because your employer never bothered to buy it for you
globalization wasn't worth it for you.
3:07 PM In truth, if you look at China's manufacturing workforce - 104.5 million people
clearly, many of these workers have paid a certain price
3:08 PM in terms of having had to work very long hours, for less than they should have been paid,
but many of them have, at the same time, helped to raise the standard of living of their family.
The true test is to ask the workers themselves.
A lot of my migrant worker friends
3:09 PM are not so sure working that hard is worth it.
And would prefer easier lives.
But they also want to earn money.
And the factories are where they can earn money.
3:10 PM me: but this is the story of progress
parents toil, so that they can put their kids through school, hopefully give them a better life
Alexandra: Yes, precisely.
3:11 PM me: generations of immigrants to America were looking for the same
Alexandra: Yes.
What I think is different today is the multinationals that are involved in this process.
These migrant workers in China are working directly to supply goods to big, international companies.
3:12 PM Who are looking for the lowest price possible.
me: yes, that's who i meant as the one winner in the equation
but even that is not so simple
Alexandra: Yes - not simple at all.
3:13 PM me: because many American consumers are also shareholders in these multinationals through their 401Ks
Alexandra: right
It's complex
retailers and brands answer to their shareholders and to Wall Street
me: a web
Alexandra: yes
me: the irony is that as China gets wealthier
Alexandra: and investors, of course, want improving returns.
3:14 PM me: more of their wealth is tied into Wall Street and multinationals
Alexandra: As shareholders, you mean, or as employees?
or both?
me: both
Alexandra: Right. Absolutely.
3:15 PM I think so far, a lot of Westerners have been concerned about labor rights and organic foods
environmentally-friendly cars
and most Chinese don't have that luxury.
But when they do, that could really have an impact on the way business is done.
3:16 PM me: so what was your big take-away after writing The China Price?
did it change the way you consume?
Alexandra: Yes.
It changed the way I think about shopping.
3:17 PM Certain prices are so low that the product cannot have been made under ethical conditions.
3:18 PM I know that for a lot of products, it's very difficult to tell precisely where and how it was made.
And that's troubling.
I do think more about buying less.
And I think about what I know about companies' buying practices,
3:19 PM and how open they are about them.
If a company can't tell me how many factories they have,
how do they know what's really happening in those factories?
I think a lot about my friends and contacts at the other end of the supply chain
3:20 PM and wonder how much of the price of what I'm buying went to them.
3:21 PM me: How many people did you talk to for the book?
3:22 PM Alexandra: I couldn't even count.
Hundreds?
Certainly more than a hundred.
3:23 PM me: Did you come across anyone you really disliked?
Alexandra: Ha! No, not really.
People were really generous, with their time, their insights, their advice.
3:24 PM Writing a book reminds you of the generosity of the human spirit.
me: That's very true...not just book writing
Alexandra: Yes.
me: I come across it all the time
Alexandra: Yes.
But as a daily journalist, you sometimes feel like nobody wants to talk to you or help you.
3:25 PM And stepping away from that to write this book helped show me that people are pretty extraordinary.
me: What's your next project? Or what would be your dream project?
3:26 PM Alexandra: Oh, I wish I knew!
I'd love to write another book someday.
me: Were there days you thought you'd never finish?
3:27 PM Alexandra: No - I had a contract, so I knew I'd finish.
But there were plenty of lonely days.
Being a daily journalist is a very social thing.
Writing a book is more solitary.
Which is funny, since I was in China for so much of the time.
Where there are plenty of people.
3:28 PM me: But you were connecting in a different way probably
Alexandra: Connecting to?
me: all the people in China that were around you
Alexandra: Right - that was great.
As you know, I love Shenzhen
3:29 PM love all of the craziness of southern China.
I find it the most fascinating place in the world.
And to have the time to explore it, to talk to people, to hear their stories,
me: i should get you to be my guide some time
Alexandra: was a real privilege.
me: i really don't like southern china
Alexandra: Really?
Why not?
me: yes, really
it's probably for all the reasons you love it
Alexandra: Ha ha!
me: it's madness
Alexandra: Yes - that's what I love.
3:30 PM me: i love japan though
Alexandra: I know you do. I love Japan too.
I just find Shenzhen kind of a hidden gem.
Everyone has a story.
me: since you speak both japanese and chinese
Alexandra: Yes, so there is that
and you know I love to talk.
So I enjoy hearing people's stories
me: it must be interesting, because the languages are so different
3:31 PM not in terms of sound
Alexandra: yes, the languages are totally different -
in terms of personality.
me: but in terms of how communication is carried out
Alexandra: I think we've talked about this before, but yes
me: yes, personality is the word
Alexandra: what do you think is the most different?
me: do you find you are a different person depending on the language you are speaking?
Alexandra: Yes, sort of.
3:32 PM All are versions of me. My Japanese personality is much more polite, more demure.
me: haha
Alexandra: My Chinese personality is much closer to my American personality.
I crack more jokes in Japanese, because I'm more fluent.
But I try to make sure people keep laughing when I speak Chinese, even if it is at me.
3:33 PM Are your Cantonese and English personalities different?
me: i think they are fairly similar, because fluency level is the same, but i think i tend to be more crass in Cantonese
Alexandra: Ha!
me: Cantonese is funny that way
3:34 PM it's a very crass, gritty language
Alexandra: Yes, from what I hear
me: or at least can be
Alexandra: Why do you think it is?
me: well, Putonghua is what was spoken in the courts
so it's more refined
Alexandra: right
me: although, when they were voting which dialect to use
3:35 PM Cantonese apparently only lost by 1 vote
Alexandra: HA!
me: or so i've been told, could be myth
Alexandra: Who was voting?
me: i assume the mandarins
Alexandra: Year?
me: not the people, of course
dunno...these are just stories my dad tells me
Alexandra: Interesting!
I will look that up.
me: tell me if it's true!
3:36 PM Alexandra: Okay, will do.
me: ok...better wrap this up...you must be busy
although i could sit here and chat with you all day
Labels: books